2. The Wife of Bath's Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree? Remember to cite evidence from the text or some other source.
3.Hahn's essay (see critical reader)on The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle identifies the motif of the loathly lady, but arguesit has a different purpose than asserting the feminine. What does he think the function of the story is?
4. In the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, how can we define "conceits"?
5. Discuss what you think is the most striking or outrageous example.
6. What does Revard (1997) suggest about the relationship between language, sex, power and transgression in the English Renaissance?
2. The Wife of Bath's Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree? Remember to cite evidence from the text or some other source.
ReplyDeleteI’m not sure but I’m trying to answer.
I don’t agree. Chaucer is not a feminist. At first I thought Chaucer is a feminist but it is not.
According to Wikipedia(2013) ”Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.” ”This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.” (para.1). Firstly, in the text, “ if the queen and other ladies had not so long begged the king for mercy, until he granted him his life at that point, and placed him entirely at the queen's will, to choose whether she would save him or let him die.” 898. Thanks to the queen’s appeal, the knight was able to survive. The point is the queen and king didn’t discuss together. It was only queen of appeal.
Secondly, the knight was described as a noble personage. Even though he raped a woman, he accepted punishment without ran away and his status was maintained. To keep an appointment, he was married to old harridan. Whereas woman used a dirty tricks. “she merely seeks husbands who will provide for her in exchange for sexual favors.” (Smith, N. 2011,para.1).
Thirdly, "My lady and love, and my dear wife, I put myself into your wise governance. Please choose which may be the greatest pleasure and greatest honor to you and me also; I care not which of the two, for it is sufficient to me to please you." 1235
"Then I have the mastery over you," she said, "since I may choose and govern as I wish" 1237
"Yes, surely, wife," he said; "I believe that is for the best." 1238
And when the knight saw truly that she was so fair and so young, he clasped her in his two arms for joy, his heart bathed in a bath of bliss. A thousand times in a row he kissed her. And she obeyed him in all that might cause him delight or pleasure. 1256. I don’t know what she want, beauty? Or love? Looking at this part, Chaucer depicts woman who just want to be a younger woman.
Lastly, the most important part in this story is answer about queen’s question, “women desire most”. Because the answer is Chaucer’s think about characteristic of woman. The answer is “My liege lady, over all this world" he said, "women wish to have sovereignty as well over her husband as her love, and to have mastery over him. This is your greatest desire, though you may slay me for this. Do as you wish; I am here at your will." 1042. The answer that queen want is not appropriate to feminism.
References
Smith, N.(2011). Feminist Analysis of the Prologue for the Wife of Bath (Canterbury Tales). Retrieved March 27, 2013, from http://www.articlemyriad.com/feminist-analysis-prologue-wife-bath/2/
Wikipedia. (2013). Feminism. Retrieved March 27, 2013, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
1. Cite some variations in the Loathly Lady fabula across the three tales in your Reader. Focus on the conditions by which the lady is either beautiful or ugly, and the actions of the knight/king/”here”…
ReplyDeleteHi, everyone! I will answer about Question. 1. These works ‘The wife of Bath’s Tale’ and ‘The wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle’ display the description about a main character who has really ugly face even the character is a girl. I think these expression means that the appearance of girls at that time, also, important as well as modern society. However, the two stories express the status of ugly by different way. For example, there are many extracts to show how the girls are ugly and loathly.
In The wife of Bath’s Tale -
“There can no man imagine an uglier creature.” (999)
“For though I am ugly, and old, and poor,” (1063)
“his wife looked so ugly” (1082)
In The wedding of sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle -
“Her face was red, her nose running
Her mouth wide, her teeth all yellow.
Her eyes were bleary, as large as balls,
Her mouth just as large.
Her teeth hung out of her lips,
Her cheeks were as broad as a women’s hips.” (P. 10).
"To recite the foulness of that lady, there is no tongue fit. She had ugliness to spare." (p. 76).
As you feel by seeing the examples, ‘The wife of Bath’s Tale’ focused on the word ‘ugly’. In the work, the condition of the girl is described as a loathly girl who cannot get married. Nevertheless, a knight, the another main character in ‘The wife of Bath’s Tale’, gets married her. Also, in ‘The wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle’ depicts all about the looks of a loathly girl in detail more than ‘The wife of Bath’s Tale’. For instance, by various ways, the work portrayed the girl’s looks such as the color of her face, her lip’s size, the color of her teeth, or her cheek size and so on. This ugliness is the main appearance of the girls in the two works.
Additionally, in some ways, the knight made the result that he have to marry her in ‘The wife of Bath’s Tale’. Finally, he granted what she wants, and he respected her opinion, that is, she had the opportunity to be above the man. In another story, it described another view of the ugly girl who King Arthur said “she is the ugliest girl who I have never seen”. However, the Sir Gawain decided to marry her and his faithfulness to the king was not broken, and the loyalty was great. After all, he got married her and he showed the conviction that he will marry her if he reborn in the next world.
References:
Chaucer, G. (c.1390). The Wife of Bath.
Hahn, T. (Ed.). (1995). The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle. In Sir Gawain: Eleven Romances and Tales. Kalamazoo, Michigan: Medieval Institute Publications.
feel free to reply if you want to add more :)
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ReplyDeleteI agree with these critics who assert Geoffrey Chaucer was in a view of feminism, but I do not agree with the critics a little. In my opinion, Chaucer drew a little feminism view in ‘The Wife of Bath’s Tale’, but the writer was not a feminist. Let’s see why I think so.
ReplyDeleteIn the 14th century, the right of women was under the men’s right, and it was hard to think a view of feminism such as the story ‘The Wife of Bath’s Tale’. According to Griffin (2010), until 14th century, the women of medieval period were just described as certainly feeble, immoral, and pointless. As portrayed above, the women of the period had just limited right of choices to do something or live like the men
Additionally, of course, the women was regarded as the poor and weak or regarded as a person who help their husband more convenient and just do housework. That is, even if the girls did not have the power of rulers or the option of choices such as the politicians or the men of 14th century, Chaucer made the sensational work, so it could be a sensation at that time. Chaucer made readers feel As if there are the 14th women who have the right to vote and be on the guys just like living in 20th century.
For instance,
lets have a look at the time when the knight finds what women want to have truly. In this sentence, Chaucer was showing that the girls really want to have more powerful right and status than the guys
"Women desire to have sovereignty
As well as over her husband as her love,
And to be in mastery above him"
However, in another viewpoint, basically the knight who raped a girl could have killed by the law of the age, but he still lived after raping the young girl. Even if he committed a crime, he was given to choices whether live or death by the queen who got married King of Arthur. I think Chaucer gave the knight the chance to live in a view of non-feminism.
For example,
“So long prayed the king for grace” (L.895), “To choose whether she would him save or put to death” (L.898). These sentences display that Chaucer was on the middle course between feminism and general thinking of the century.
Therefore, I think Chaucer intended to make the story for women and the side for men at the same time, so it is really controversial for critics to argue if Chaucer is a feminist or not.
In conclusion, in my opinion, Chaucer is really good writer, and he is really brilliant. Even though he lived in the middle ages, he thought a modern view such as putting a little feminism in his work. I think he understood how much the women had conflicts from the inequality, so he focused on relieving the stress of the women through reading the tales. That is, I think he, sometimes, had a view of faminism just in his literature, but he was not a faminist. That is what i am thinking about Chaucer and his work.
P.S. Feel free to open your opinion by reply :-)
References:
Chaucer, G. (c. 1390). The Wife of Bath.
Griffin, P. (2010). "Women in the 14th Century." Retrieved March 30, 2013 from http://pam-griffin.suite101.com/women-in-the-14th-century-a196534.
It is about question 2!
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ReplyDeleteI never actually thought of it like that. At first I thought that Chaucer work showcases a woman's point of view. What I mean by this is through out his poem where power is given to the queen by the king to let the knight live but in order for him to do so, he had to complete a quest.
ReplyDelete"I will grant you your life. If you could tell me what it is women most desire."
and was given 12 months a day to come up with a desirable answer or be off with his head.
Then another section of the poem where the knight is in court to answer the queens question. I feel that the queens and her ladies have the power over him so he says
"My liege lady, without exception," he said,
"Women desire to have sovereignty
As well over her husband as her love,
And to be in mastery above him.
This is your greatest desire,THOUGH YOU KILL ME.
DO AS YOU PLEASE; I am here subject to your will."
In all the court there was not wife, nor maid,
Nor widow that denied what he said,
But said that he was worthy to have his life."
And with that the old women rose up and said that she was who had told the knight this, so he must keep his word.
I'm not certain but as we have seen old films such as "King Arthur" we often see knight agreeing to things because they feel that it is their duty to do so, in this case the knight must honor his agreement with lady and ask her hand in marriage. This in my opinion is giving the woman power over this man.
Another part of this poem I feel this also refers to is when they are in the bedroom and the woman gives the knight 2 options
1. I will be old and a ugly wife, but loyal to you and you alone.
2. I could be young and pretty but sleep with men in our house or around.
You pick, and he chose to let her choose. Again this I think he is giving women a voice.
What do you gi=uys think?
Sorry my reply only refers to "The Wife of Bath."
DeleteSorry reference
DeleteChaucer, G. (c. 1390). The Wife of Bath
I also noticed that the same things occurs in the other poems
DeleteKing Arthur meets a really ugly woman.
For instance, in my opinion the ugly woman comes across as someone that is really demanding. He describes her as someone that is really ugly yet looks like she lives well. Then as she say hi she then in my opinion demanded the King that for him to live he must answer her demand to order Sir Garwain to take her hand in marriage. I do not that is just me but please do let me know what you guys think.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to attempt to answer Q4.
ReplyDelete4. In the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, how can we define "conceits"?
In the dictionary "CONCEITS" is defined as:Too much pride in oneself.
I am not so sure but I think what "conceit" means in
"Sonnet CXXX"
I don't know
References
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/conceit
4. In the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, how can we define "conceits"?
ReplyDeleteAccording to Asarnow(n.d) Sonnets in the Renaissance very often relied on extended metaphors, called conceits(para4). In other words conceit is a metaphor or simile.
For example - Shakespeare - Sonnet 30
When to the sessions of sweet silent thought
I summon up remembrance of things past,
I sigh the lack of many a thing I sought,
And with old woes new wail my dear time's waste.
Then can I drown an eye, unused to flow,
For precious friends hid in death's dateless night,
And weep afresh love's long since cancelled woe,
And moan th'expense of many a vanished sight.
Then can I grieve at grievances foregone,
And heavily from woe to woe tell o'er
The sad account of fore-bemoaned moan,
Which I new pay as if not paid before.
But if the while I think on thee, dear friend,
All losses are restored, and sorrows end.
[ dateless: endless ] [ expense: loss ] [ foregone: gone by] [ heavily: sadly] [ tell: reckon ]
Sir Thomas Wyatt (1503-1542) - The Long Love that in my Thought doth Harbour
The longë love that in my thought doth harbour
And in mine hert doth keep his residence,
Into my face presseth with bold pretence
And therein campeth, spreading his banner.
She that me learneth to love and suffer
And will that my trust and lustës negligence
Be rayned by reason, shame, and reverence,
With his hardiness taketh displeasure.
Wherewithall unto the hert's forest he fleeth,
Leaving his enterprise with pain and cry,
And there him hideth and not appeareth.
What may I do when my master feareth
But in the field with him to live and die?
For good is the life ending faithfully.
In this sonnet, love is compared to a warrior. [ learneth: teaches ] [ his: the god of Love's ] [ hardiness: boldness ]
Reference
Asarnow. (n.d). The Elizabethan (& Jacobean) sonnet. Retrieved April 4 2013, from http://faculty.up.edu/asarnow/324/Sonnets03.htm
I definitely agree that a conceit is an extended metaphor or simile so on, so in other words a conceit allows the reader to experience a more complicated but sophisticated understanding of an object of comparison.
DeleteSo correct me if I am wrong but even though the definition in the dictionary “someone that is full of her/himself” in the sonnets is a totally different thing?
ReplyDeleteFor example
Sonnet CXXX by Shakespeare
My mistress’ eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red than her lips’ red;
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.
I have seen roses damask’d, red and white,
But no such roses see I in her cheeks;
And in some perfumes is there more delight
Than in the breath that from my mistress reeks.
I love to hear her speak, yet well I know
That music hath a far more pleasing sound;
I grant I never saw a goddess go;
My mistress, when she walks, treads on the ground:
And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare
As any she belied with false compare.
So this poem is referred to his lover, however he say things such as “ my mistress eyes are nothing like the sun”, black wires grow on her head”, breath that from my mistress reeks”... and then near the end he states that even though she maybe all these things “his love as rare, as any she belied with false compare”.
Does this come across to you guy as a joke? Because this poem compared to Shakespeare’s other poems are far different.
What do you guys think?
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ReplyDelete1. Cite some variations in the Loathly Lady fabula across the three tales in your Reader. Focus on the conditions by which the lady is either beautiful or ugly, and the actions of the knight/king/"hero"...
ReplyDeleteThe loathy lady and the wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle show different way of ugly lady.
Dame ragnelle was evil and full of intrigued.According to the wedding of sir gawain and Dame ragnelle,she tried to threat and want to have a deal with king Arthur.
"Did you think I dont know your secret ?I know all.Without my help,you are dead.Grant me sir king, one thing only.Then I will promise you your life.Ohterwise,you lose your head." (This is cite from the wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle.She tired to make Arthur afraid and scare of what she said about the secret and also without her ,he will be dead.No one will actually put themselves life on risk even though just few words from a lady.What she said is successfully had attention from Arthur.Her motivation is willing to do anything it takes to achieve and get what she want.
Arthur was shocked after she told him that she want to marry Sir Gawain.He doesnt agree and like it."Heavens" said king ,"
I cannot promise you I will order Sir Gawain to wed.That all depends on him."
After he returned to his kingdom,he told everything to Sir Gawain.He's sad because that's hardest decision he cant make.But sir Gawain is willing to do everything and whatever for his honored king.
"I shall wed her and wed her again,even if she be a fiend.Even were she as foul as Beelzebub,I would wed here,I swear by the cross."
3.Hahn's essay (see critical reader)on The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle identifies the motif of the loathly lady, but arguesit has a different purpose than asserting the feminine. What does he think the function of the story is?
ReplyDeleteThe function of the story is ugly lady can be evil or "reasonable" kind.
The wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle is showing that the ugly lady is evil and loathy as her appearance.Dame Ragnelle threat king Arthur to achieve her goal because she want to marry Sir Gawain.But compare the loathy lady and dame ragnelle is bit different.The loathy lady want to marry the knight.But what she have done is saved his life first.But she also bring this to royal court,instead of force and threct the knight to marry her.She s fair and with good heart.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIn the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, how can we define "conceits"?
ReplyDeleteConceits define as use satire and puns and deeper meaning ,also own cunning with words in the poem and verse.
Reference
Abrams,M.H.(1993).The Norton Anthology of English Literature,6th ed.New York:W.W.Norton and Company.Inc.,p.1081
4. In the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, how can we define "conceits"?
ReplyDeleteIn the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets an understanding of a sonnet is a poem of fourteen lines using any of a number of formal rhyme schemes. Often written in iambic pentameter and consists of three quatrains usually with the rhyme scheme abab cdcd efe gg.
However to describe ‘conceits’ within these sonnets is like a play on words, a pun, some sort of imagery or comparison of opposite thing exactly like a metaphor, almost like a simile (figures of speech) which is common in all types of poetry. An example of this shown in Shakespeare’s Sonnet CXXXX “If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head” (l.4). The comparison between a piece of wire and hair is uncanny but I get I feeling of disgust if you are comparing a metal like substance with a fine threadlike strand.
Another ‘conceit’ found is in Edmund Spenser’s ‘Ice and Fire’. It is logical that fire and ice do not go together as both elements are the total opposite of each other, a classic example of a ‘conceit’ right? This poem/sonnet displays the deep affection where a man is love with a woman but she doesn’t have the same feelings in return. “My love is like to ice, and I to fire.” (l.1). He describes himself as an element with a burning desire for her, but the woman is described as ice a cold hearted tease. “But harder grows the more I her entreat?” (l.4). Again here it displays her increasing coldness towards him the more he desires her.
The last two line of the poem shows that love is the main theme used, and that with love comes pain and rejection but love has the power to change natural occurrences or events such as fire melting ice.